We have two very interesting debates/discussions going on. If you have some time to kill and would like to read up on different viewpoints regarding Calvanistic teachings , see here and here.
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Love the new photo! I am ashamed that I don't have even one up yet! I have been traveling a lot lately, so I have not been able to do much more than post, but I wanted to thank you for stopping by.
I read your mini debate with pastor timothy... I must confess I come down on the side of total depravity and would fall under the hyper calvinist heading. Though i dont consider myself hyper anything.
I dso believe God has carved out for Himself a people... the elect if you will. Though we do have Free Will... God has put certain people throughout history that were "destined" to choose the Free choices they made.
take Pharoah God says "He hardened Pharoahs heart" Well yeah... Pharoah had free will but God hardened His heart to do God's will... become a stumbling block and a hinderence to Moses... so that God's greater glory could be revealed later... through the signs of miracles God directed... Locusts... Water turning Blood... etc.
Again... God made this statement about Jacob and Esau while still in the womb... Jacob I loved and Esau I hated
wow... God hated Esau and he hadnt even been born yet
it would be great to believe that we all have the ability to find God and go to heaven... but it isnt so... what of the centuries and centuries of people that lived and died never ever hearing God's name... or hearing about Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross.
IE: all those souls that died in North America loooooong before this contenent was discoved by Europeans.
Indians... Aztecs... Mayans
Unless they specifically asked for forgiveness of their sins and acknowledge Jesus as the sacrificed lamb of God who's blood was shed for remission of our sins... they are condemned to... well to not having the heaven and pleasure of being eternally in the omnificent presence of God.
They had free will... but God chose to put them in a circumstance... where they lived and the time they lived... where they would not and could not ever hear the word of God... or know of His Son
well thats my 2 cents :)
romey PS: it's unanamous amongst us guys... you are a total babe and ur pic is... okay ur gunna hate this cause its obvious you have "compliment accepting issues"... but you are hawt
I am going to throw in my two cents worth here, and later on my blog (just because I love it when people rip into me!) Was the Bible written for believer, unbelievers, or both?
Romey, thanks for your comments. I have to admit, you totally impressed me with your understanding of these Biblical issues. I'm not trying to be judgmental or offensive in any way at all, so please don't take it that way, but I would've never known from your blog that you were interested in stuff like this. Very good! (Although, I did read that inspirational poem you wrote a while back, and was very impressed!)
Okay, in response to your ideas-- I totally agree with you about Esau and Pharoah. However, I would not say that God CHOSE for them to be that way, but since He is all-knowing, He knew they would make those choices to reject Him, and therefore fit those choices into His plan to bring Himself glory.
I believe that, yes, everyone does have the chance to know God in a personal way. The Bible says in John chapter 1 that everyone is born with the knowledge of a Supreme Being. Jeremiah says that if man will pursue that knowledge, and try to know this supreme Being, that God promises to make Himself known to them. But if they reject this inborn knowledge, Romans chapter 1 says that God gives them over to their "reprobate minds" and they are without excuse. All of creation points to a God, an inborn knowledge points to God. All man has to do is seek Him, and God will make Himself known to them.
I have heard countless stories of someone out in the middle of Africa or South America, and they wanted to know God, and God sent a missionary there for the one simple reason to teach that one seeking soul about Him.
I do appreciate your thoughts! And thanks for the compliment. I will have to work on my "compliment acceptance issues"!! =)
hey gorgeous (sweet... I just won the argument with that compliment LOL) anyway yeah... so what about all the people BEFORE Christ died on the cross... only the Jews (and that one woman that helped out the Israeli spies... forget her name right now but she hid them) anyway only Jews could entire... "Paradise" it wasnt called heaven... before Christ they went to Paradise... so what of all those souls... are they damned to hell?
Just as we look back at Christ's death and accept it as payment for our sins, all the people who lived before He died looked forward to His coming to be their Savior and make payment for their sins. God gave these people lots of promises that He was going to send a Messiah, His anointed one or chosen One who would make the Once and for all complete payment for sin. If they took God at His word, and believed that, then they are saved. Just as we must take God at His Word to be saved today. And God gave these promises to all people, not just the Jews, because many were given before the Jewish nation was even born. He even gave His people the sacrifices and the passover as a picture of the spotless Lamb of God who would come to make that final payment. So, no, all those souls before Christ were not automatically damned to Hell. They had just as much chance as we do today. It simply takes faith.
As far as where Old Testament believers went when they died, you're right, it wasn't heaven as we know of today. It was a place called Abraham's bosom or "paradise"--a place of comfort. There was a big gulf separating it from the place of punishment--hades. After Christ rose from the dead, he took all the believers out of Abraham's bosom and on to heaven. After the rapture, the tribulation, and the 1000 year reign of Christ, God is going to make a new heaven. This is the one we're so familiar with--with streets of gold and gates of pearl, etc. Then, He is going to cast the devil permanantly into to everlasting lake of fire (hell) and all the unbelievers will follow. That's a pretty brief, simplified version as I understand it.
I posted some thoughts on the issue of the Bible being for unbelievers. Let me know what you think, and please invite others to share their thoughts as well!
you still didnt answer the over all question as to (as you put it) unbelievers preChrist sacrifice
see the Bible specifically speaks to this... No one that wasnt a Jew... NO ONE... had the oppertunity to enter into paradise. God set up rules and guidelines as to how you could have your sins forgiven... it had to be a Blood sacrifice and it had to be pure and good in Gods eyes.
I think we can agree that there were peoples... on the earth at that time that never met a Jewish person in their lifetime or had knowledge of the Jews... again I would mention the Native Americans... Aztecs... etc... we know from artifacts they were living on their land at this time... yet they had no knowledge of Jews or of needing a Blood sacrifice to the one true God Jehovah
they... because of their positioning on the planet... never had an oppertunity to hear of God... know to make such a sacrifice... their fate was sealed... plus... they were not God's Chosen people
in order to argue against this you have to say... Well they should have known God because he is revealed in creation.
Fine... but would I make a blood sacrifice and call him Jehovah the one true God?
I realize this is tough medicine... understanding that God truly does choose.
Now we can argue how many angels will fit on the head of a pin all day long :) I dont think you'd fit even though you are quite the lil' angel... however... bottom line... in my book... I did not accept Christ Christ accepted me
had I the choice I'd have chosen sin and death... God has to give us a heart for him... he must change us first
Romeo the book of Romans offers detailed answers to your questions. I think that when these verses from Romans 7 fit your theology you'll have found your answers;
8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
You are right. The Native Indians, and others outside of the Jewish nation had no clue about the blood sacrifices. But those sacrifices are not what saved the Jewish people. They were a picture of Christ, and a temporary covering of their sin, but not a permanent solution. Christ was the permanent solution. One did not have to make sacrifices in order to be saved from Hell.
And yes, God did reveal Himself especially to the Jews during this time. However, I still believe that if these other people living during this time had sought God, He would've brought them the truth that one day, He was sending the Messiah.
You have to remember that the Jewish nation didn't start until the time of Abraham. God had already taught about blood sacrifices, and given promises of the coming Savior since Adam and Eve. (I believe most Bible scholars agree there was about 2000 years between Adam and Abraham.) So, when all the people spread out around the earth at the time of the tower of Babel, they could've taken these promises and sacrifice practices with them. They should've taught them to their children. Obviously, they did not. They rejected the truth that God had already revealed to them. That is why God didn't reveal any further truth. Therefore, they were condemned to Hell. Not because they weren't chosen, but because they rejected the truth.
I do agree with you that Christ is the One that finds us, but I would say, He wishes to find and accept ALL, not just a few. And yes, naturally, we would all choose sin and death if we were never given any truth. But every single person has the chance to respond to the truth they are given. If they accept it, God will give them more truth. If they reject it, God will even take away the truth they had in the first place. It's not God's choice. It's man's.
Hope this helps you understand why I believe what I do.
Hey Kristi, let us talk about the other points...if you want. We somewhat came to an agreement about the LA, which may I add is an accomplishment. But, I'm interested in your viewpoint concerning the others.
18 comments:
looks like I have to turn my Word Verification back on.... I was doing so good! Oh well.
Kristi,
Love the new photo! I am ashamed that I don't have even one up yet! I have been traveling a lot lately, so I have not been able to do much more than post, but I wanted to thank you for stopping by.
Kristi I don't think I ever commented on your pretty pic and how nice your site looks, but it is and it does! ;-)
thanks guys. I worked hard on that new header. I had to do it all from scratch, because I don't know any other way! =)
Ron, I know what it's like to travel a lot. It seems like I'm driving or flying somewhere every other week!!
I like the new look of your site. It's very pretty and so is the owner of this blog:-)
I hope you don't mind me drinking tea while I visit, haha.
I might get into debating when it's done in Dutch:-)For now, I like to sit back and try to follow it.
God's Grace.
I read your mini debate with pastor timothy... I must confess I come down on the side of total depravity and would fall under the hyper calvinist heading. Though i dont consider myself hyper anything.
I dso believe God has carved out for Himself a people... the elect if you will. Though we do have Free Will... God has put certain people throughout history that were "destined" to choose the Free choices they made.
take Pharoah
God says "He hardened Pharoahs heart"
Well yeah... Pharoah had free will but God hardened His heart to do God's will... become a stumbling block and a hinderence to Moses... so that God's greater glory could be revealed later... through the signs of miracles God directed... Locusts... Water turning Blood... etc.
Again... God made this statement about Jacob and Esau while still in the womb...
Jacob I loved and Esau I hated
wow... God hated Esau and he hadnt even been born yet
it would be great to believe that we all have the ability to find God and go to heaven... but it isnt so... what of the centuries and centuries of people that lived and died never ever hearing God's name... or hearing about Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross.
IE: all those souls that died in North America loooooong before this contenent was discoved by Europeans.
Indians... Aztecs... Mayans
Unless they specifically asked for forgiveness of their sins and acknowledge Jesus as the sacrificed lamb of God who's blood was shed for remission of our sins... they are condemned to... well to not having the heaven and pleasure of being eternally in the omnificent presence of God.
They had free will... but God chose to put them in a circumstance... where they lived and the time they lived... where they would not and could not ever hear the word of God... or know of His Son
well thats my 2 cents :)
romey
PS: it's unanamous amongst us guys... you are a total babe and ur pic is... okay ur gunna hate this cause its obvious you have "compliment accepting issues"... but you are hawt
OK Kristi,
I am going to throw in my two cents worth here, and later on my blog (just because I love it when people rip into me!) Was the Bible written for believer, unbelievers, or both?
Corry, tea is perfectly fine too!!
Romey, thanks for your comments. I have to admit, you totally impressed me with your understanding of these Biblical issues. I'm not trying to be judgmental or offensive in any way at all, so please don't take it that way, but I would've never known from your blog that you were interested in stuff like this. Very good! (Although, I did read that inspirational poem you wrote a while back, and was very impressed!)
Okay, in response to your ideas--
I totally agree with you about Esau and Pharoah. However, I would not say that God CHOSE for them to be that way, but since He is all-knowing, He knew they would make those choices to reject Him, and therefore fit those choices into His plan to bring Himself glory.
I believe that, yes, everyone does have the chance to know God in a personal way. The Bible says in John chapter 1 that everyone is born with the knowledge of a Supreme Being. Jeremiah says that if man will pursue that knowledge, and try to know this supreme Being, that God promises to make Himself known to them. But if they reject this inborn knowledge, Romans chapter 1 says that God gives them over to their "reprobate minds" and they are without excuse. All of creation points to a God, an inborn knowledge points to God. All man has to do is seek Him, and God will make Himself known to them.
I have heard countless stories of someone out in the middle of Africa or South America, and they wanted to know God, and God sent a missionary there for the one simple reason to teach that one seeking soul about Him.
I do appreciate your thoughts! And thanks for the compliment. I will have to work on my "compliment acceptance issues"!! =)
hey gorgeous (sweet... I just won the argument with that compliment LOL) anyway yeah... so what about all the people BEFORE Christ died on the cross... only the Jews (and that one woman that helped out the Israeli spies... forget her name right now but she hid them) anyway only Jews could entire... "Paradise" it wasnt called heaven... before Christ they went to Paradise... so what of all those souls... are they damned to hell?
just wandering
romey
Romey, Good question. I will attempt to answer:
Just as we look back at Christ's death and accept it as payment for our sins, all the people who lived before He died looked forward to His coming to be their Savior and make payment for their sins. God gave these people lots of promises that He was going to send a Messiah, His anointed one or chosen One who would make the Once and for all complete payment for sin. If they took God at His word, and believed that, then they are saved. Just as we must take God at His Word to be saved today. And God gave these promises to all people, not just the Jews, because many were given before the Jewish nation was even born. He even gave His people the sacrifices and the passover as a picture of the spotless Lamb of God who would come to make that final payment. So, no, all those souls before Christ were not automatically damned to Hell. They had just as much chance as we do today. It simply takes faith.
As far as where Old Testament believers went when they died, you're right, it wasn't heaven as we know of today. It was a place called Abraham's bosom or "paradise"--a place of comfort. There was a big gulf separating it from the place of punishment--hades. After Christ rose from the dead, he took all the believers out of Abraham's bosom and on to heaven. After the rapture, the tribulation, and the 1000 year reign of Christ, God is going to make a new heaven. This is the one we're so familiar with--with streets of gold and gates of pearl, etc.
Then, He is going to cast the devil permanantly into to everlasting lake of fire (hell) and all the unbelievers will follow. That's a pretty brief, simplified version as I understand it.
Thanks for your questions!!
Kristi,
I posted some thoughts on the issue of the Bible being for unbelievers. Let me know what you think, and please invite others to share their thoughts as well!
okay BUT..........
you still didnt answer the over all question as to (as you put it) unbelievers preChrist sacrifice
see the Bible specifically speaks to this... No one that wasnt a Jew... NO ONE... had the oppertunity to enter into paradise. God set up rules and guidelines as to how you could have your sins forgiven... it had to be a Blood sacrifice and it had to be pure and good in Gods eyes.
I think we can agree that there were peoples... on the earth at that time that never met a Jewish person in their lifetime or had knowledge of the Jews... again I would mention the Native Americans... Aztecs... etc... we know from artifacts they were living on their land at this time... yet they had no knowledge of Jews or of needing a Blood sacrifice to the one true God Jehovah
they... because of their positioning on the planet... never had an oppertunity to hear of God... know to make such a sacrifice... their fate was sealed... plus... they were not God's Chosen people
in order to argue against this you have to say... Well they should have known God because he is revealed in creation.
Fine... but would I make a blood sacrifice and call him Jehovah the one true God?
I realize this is tough medicine... understanding that God truly does choose.
Now we can argue how many angels will fit on the head of a pin all day long :) I dont think you'd fit even though you are quite the lil' angel... however... bottom line... in my book...
I did not accept Christ
Christ accepted me
had I the choice I'd have chosen sin and death... God has to give us a heart for him... he must change us first
romey
Romeo the book of Romans offers detailed answers to your questions. I think that when these verses from Romans 7 fit your theology you'll have found your answers;
8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
(NASB)
Romeo,
You are right. The Native Indians, and others outside of the Jewish nation had no clue about the blood sacrifices. But those sacrifices are not what saved the Jewish people. They were a picture of Christ, and a temporary covering of their sin, but not a permanent solution. Christ was the permanent solution. One did not have to make sacrifices in order to be saved from Hell.
And yes, God did reveal Himself especially to the Jews during this time. However, I still believe that if these other people living during this time had sought God, He would've brought them the truth that one day, He was sending the Messiah.
You have to remember that the Jewish nation didn't start until the time of Abraham. God had already taught about blood sacrifices, and given promises of the coming Savior since Adam and Eve. (I believe most Bible scholars agree there was about 2000 years between Adam and Abraham.) So, when all the people spread out around the earth at the time of the tower of Babel, they could've taken these promises and sacrifice practices with them. They should've taught them to their children. Obviously, they did not. They rejected the truth that God had already revealed to them. That is why God didn't reveal any further truth. Therefore, they were condemned to Hell. Not because they weren't chosen, but because they rejected the truth.
I do agree with you that Christ is the One that finds us, but I would say, He wishes to find and accept ALL, not just a few. And yes, naturally, we would all choose sin and death if we were never given any truth. But every single person has the chance to respond to the truth they are given. If they accept it, God will give them more truth. If they reject it, God will even take away the truth they had in the first place. It's not God's choice. It's man's.
Hope this helps you understand why I believe what I do.
Thanks! =)
Hey Kristi, let us talk about the other points...if you want. We somewhat came to an agreement about the LA, which may I add is an accomplishment. But, I'm interested in your viewpoint concerning the others.
Okay, Adam. I guess I'm ready as I'll ever be!! I will collect some thoughts and post something.
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